Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes, the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly is a body which consists of mostly the member countries of the European
Union- but unlike the EU, this body also includes some countries that are not members of the EU, and some countries, such as Turkey, that are not even in the continent of Europe.
This body has a Parliamentary Assembly consisting of 630 individuals. Various decisions taken in sub-committees established by these Parliamentarians from time to time are ratified by the general assembly, and the decisions emerging from there are then submitted to the Council of Europe’s Council of Ministers as recommendations. Recently, on 4th of October, the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, the 630-member European Council Parliamentary Assembly, at a sessions attended by 73 members, took a decision that had been previously worked on for some time. . This decision was numbered 1580 and was a most interesting one. What makes it interesting is this: it states that the idea of creation, the idea that the universe and all living things were created by Almighty God, efforts to have which taught in schools in various countries of the world are on-going, should not be taught in schools, that this could pose a threat from various points of view, and that the theory of evolution should be taught as much as possible as an absolutely scientific theory in schools, for the future of the world as a whole, for the future of Europe, for the healthy enshrining of European values and principles, and for the healthy establishment of human rights. At this point, an interesting reference was made to an organisation in Turkey, the Science Research Foundation, stating that the body had for long been engaged in anti-evolutionary activities and that the giant Atlas of Creation published by it contained illustrations of some of the fossils discovered to date, that this was not actually a particularly scientific endeavour, that the organisation had been exhibiting fossils in the scope of its anti-evolutionary activities, and that it, too, therefore represented a threat of some kind. This decision, taken with the participation of 73 out of the 630 members of the Parliamentary Assembly, of whom 48 voted in favour, may seem to be of little value, but at the end of the day it is still interesting that one section of the world community, an atheist section, which seeks to account for life in Darwinian terms and wishes to teach our children the same nonsense, should have reached as far as the European Parliament and had such a decision taken at a session with so few members present. We decided to seek the views of someone who has been carrying out detailed work on this subject for many years now; the founder and still Honorary President of the Science Research Foundation mentioned in the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, and the author of the Atlas of Creation which the Council of Europe has attempted to ban, and even partially succeeded in doing so in some countries. Mr. Adnan Oktar is with us now. Hello, Sir.
Adnan Oktar: Hello
Ekrem Kiziltas: First of all, thank you for your book The Atlas of Creation and your other works. These thanks are perhaps because, as we saw in the Council of Europe Parliamentarians’ Assembly decision, a small minority, just 73 members out of 630, come together and when 48 of them vote in favour this becomes supposedly the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly decision. This is a very small minority. They maintain in Turkey and in the world as a whole that the universe came into being by chance, and that living things attained their present forms by evolving following the spontaneous emergence of a single cell, and claim that such a thing is scientific. What is the exact problem with the evolutionists? What is it that they want?
Adnan Oktar: Evolutionists’ main objective is the rejection of the existence of Allah (Allah is above all their claims). But the Muslim reaction to this decision taken by the European Parliament was a weak one and attracted little notice. In other words it was regarded as a trivial matter. But in my view it is a terribly, terrible important issue; they may appear to have done this on a casual basis, but in my view that is not the case at all. It was a highly planned and organised initiative. Because before that we heard voices croaking out for the Qur’an to be banned. And then this. In my opinion this is laying the groundwork for an offensive to be launched in the future. I think their fundamental aim is the banning of the Qur’an. That is what they are working towards. In other words, that is what they are going to do in the long term. We can see this from the way they talk. The reason they are uneasy at the criticism of Darwinism is related to the Qur’an, in other words these are two sides of the same coin, and they therefore have problems with Islam itself. That is why Muslims need to wake up quickly and early. We cannot say that the European Union decision is nothing to do with us. Because one day these people will have sufficient power to be able to impose sanctions. I always thought of the European Union as a democratic institution. I even used to think that Turkey would enter the European Union, that democracy would grow further, that intellectual freedom and freedom of thought would emerge, and that everything would be more stable and comfortable, and that civilisation would advance still further. But now I see nothing of the kind. There is a huge danger at the gates. A worse danger even than communism, in my view. Because the public is well aware of communism. But we are looking at a cunning and covert communism here. But this is a worse danger than communism. The general hatred people feel for communism is well known. But there is no such hatred for the European Union. There is even considerable sympathy for it. We even, I even, used to support it. But the European Union has now begun to bear its fangs. This is a most serious danger. We need to meet this with a major mobilisation of faith. We need a revolution as regards Darwinism in particular; everywhere, in the press, on the television, in newspapers, everywhere.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes As you have said, this is a time when Turkey is distinctly uneasy, and very little reaction to the decision emerged from it. Only the daily Radikal, an adherent of evolution, reported the matter in its main stories. The other dailies in one sense ignored it entirely. The other stories on the agenda were those like the Iraq draft law and the like. Two parliamentarians attended from Turkey, two parliamentarians from the Republican People’s Party (CHP), who sadly voted in favour. In brief, our problem is this: they say that the theory of evolution should be taught in schools as a scientific reality, and that the view that the universe was created by Almighty God should not, and that the latter represents a grave threat. Maybe we can first of all determine the main lines of this. What are evolutionists saying, and what danger does this represent for us?
Adnan Oktar: What evolutionists say is worst disgrace in the history of the world. It is totally irrational. I can't even begin to apprehend such an ignominy. They said that atoms in a muddy swamp suddenly decided among themselves to combine to form a protein. Those proteins then came to an agreement and decided to form a protein that would give rise to life. Those proteins then came to another understanding and agreed to create the cell. Cells then came together and agreed to create a moving, living thing. Let us make eyes, they said, so that the creature can see what is going on around it. Let us make a nose, for it to sniff. Let us make create an ear so it can hear. Let us make toes so it can feel things. Let us create a soul so it can perceive its own existence. But each and every one of them should come into existence by chance. I cannot even imagine such a disgrace in my own mind, I can't even conceive it.
Ekrem Kiziltas: This theory is described as scientific in all texts. The theory may be comprehensible, but it is given a scientific mask and taught in schools, and, what is worse, in all schools. What is the force that brings this about? Because under normal circumstances this would be utterly ridiculous, the idea that everything came into existence by chance. This is a denial of the very perfection in this created entity. Yet they call it scientific. What we say is that Almighty God said “Be!” and everything came into being. They claim this is not scientific. So if they can say this is not scientific, what is it that makes their claim scientific? Why do they define their claim as scientific?
Adnan Oktar: Fallacy is the term used for overblown irrational, illogical inconveniences . This is a classical fallacy. This flower came into being by chance. This microphone came into being by chance. This glass came into being by chance. This house-also by chance. You wouldn’t even call someone who said such things mad, because he is far more abnormal then mere madness.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Stark, staring mad, you mean?
Adnan Oktar: Even worse than that…
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes… In its decision the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly stresses on Turkey in particular. There was not much reaction from Turkey, but they particularly highlighted Turkey. Stating that activities regarding creation theory first appeared in the United States but later on begin to widespread in Europe, but in the mean time, pre eminently in Turkey, and that particularly the Science Research Foundation is carrying out serious work on the subject. The Science Research Foundation has opened exhibitions of fossils. And if I remember correctly, the 3rd Volume of the Atlas of Creation has now emerged. Inshallah, the full 7 volumes will be completed. Only then one will probably need a van to carry them all! But this makes these scientists uneasy. Yet they say they are scientific. In your view, is there anything in those fossil exhibitions or the book that could make anyone uneasy in scientific terms?
Adnan Oktar: That is what is so dreadful. Because the fossils displayed in the exhibitions came out of the ground and are 50 or 100 million years old but, as scientists themselves admit, they have never changed since, and are identical to specimens in existence today. Therefore, these are the most striking evidences. There is not just 1 fossil, nor 2, nor 10, not even 100, or millions, but they exist in estimated 100 millions. This is utterly convincing. Any child or young person or anyone can see the truth of this from just reading 4 or 5 pages. That is why the inspectors from the French Ministry of Education in particular regard it as such a threat.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Excuse me, maybe we can move on to the subject of France. The Atlas of Creation was printed in Turkey and then sent on to specific destinations. It was placed at people’s service. Then there was suddenly a huge uproar from France. That was last year, if I remember correctly, and the noise of it can still be heard. How did that all happen?
Adnan Oktar: France is the global heart of atheism. I imagine the first surgery performed on that heart made it jump a bit. That is where the problem originates from. They imagined that nobody would come to France, in any case not Muslims. These are fixed ideas, and cannot be shaken or altered. We have hundreds, thousands of professors, and hundreds of universities. Nobody can demolish that system. They thought it would go on for ever. Then they encountered a force they had failed to allow for, that they could not control. And then it was all too late. Indeed, a certain number of copies were sent to particular leading professors and scientists. So even if they do round up and burn all the books, the scientists have by now read them, and seen the realities. Since they cannot burn the scientists, as well. And even if they did, may God forbid, that person will in any case have spoken to many others. But they do not know who they may have spoken to. That is why there is complete panic. That is why they keep asking who the book was sent to and how many copies were distributed. In other words, they are suspicious of everyone. Anyone may have read it. And if they have, then there is no possibility of misleading them. How can they? Unless the other party is naïve and knows nothing… And that in itself would be a disgrace. That is why there is complete panic. The fact is that we were the main target at the meeting. There was no other subject matter.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes, you are always the real subject matter in it,
Adnan Oktar: They have no such problems with creationists in America. They have had no impact to date. They are no problem. They have thousands, hundreds of thousands of books on the market. But they cannot in any way be affected by them. But here, they have found a destructive
strength. A strength capable of total destruction. In addition, it was meant to be 7 volumes, but we have raised the number to 14, let me state that.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Excellent.
Adnan Oktar: There are so many fossils. We have no option. There are around 100 million fossils. That is enough to fill 14,000 volumes, let alone just 14. We will have published just a very small part of the total.
Ekrem Kiziltas: I think it might be useful to enlarge on the subject of fossils. Our audience may need that. If I remember correctly, the study of fossils is known as palaeontology. A fossil develops when a fly that lived 50 million years ago, or an ant, or a fish, a snake or crocodile, somehow dies being stuck under a geological layer, and become a stone itself only to emerge fully preserved, that animal was exactly the same forty, fifty millions of years ago, as it is in the present day That is where it becomes apparent that the science of palaeontology proves what evolutionists claim about a direct evolutionary process from single-celled organisms to multi-celled ones to human beings never actually happened. These fossils reveal that other subjects tagged on to the theory of evolution, such as human beings being descended from apes, are also complete rubbish. Can any scientist stand up and say that he does not immediately recognise any one out of all these tens of millions of fossils, or that it differs in any way from those specimens we are already familiar with? Do any scientist have the right to say that?
Adnan Oktar: Absolutely not, because it is so apparent and clear. And wherever we dig in the world we come across fossils.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes.
Adnan Oktar: This is a slap in the face of them from Allah, an ambush prepared for them by Allah. Under normal circumstances there should be no fossils. No trace should remain.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes, it vanishes.
Adnan Oktar: It would normally vanish. But the fact that so many are preserved shows that this is a trap laid for them by Allah.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Indeed.
Adnan Oktar: And Allah really has made their position untenable. They never imagined they would fall into such a trap. Thousands of fossils have emerged from Turkey alone, and fossils are unearthed wherever excavations are carried out. And these are irrefutable, as they are completely immaculate, right down to the tiny bones in fish fossils.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Can they have any objections in terms of dating? We spoke of 40 million or 50 million years.
Adnan Oktar: How can they? These things are literally engraved in stone.
Ekrem Kiziltas: And dating is performed using the Carbon 14 technique.
Adnan Oktar: Yes, using Carbon 14, too.
Ekrem Kiziltas: That’s something everyone has agreed on.
Adnan Oktar: In other words, they are petrified and turn into normal stone.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes
Adnan Oktar: And as you also stated, dates can easily be determined using carbon 14. Some are 50 million years old, and others 100 million; you can tell as soon as you look. As if the Dabbet ul’Arz described in the Qur’an had appeared, it says that an animal will emerge from the fround and will tell them the truth, that they were unbelievers. These fossil exhibitions bring that to my mind. The hadiths say that the Dabbet ul’Arz resembles all kinds of living thing. In other words, it is regarded as comprising all living things. The hadith state that every part of it resembles some life form and that it wanders about from street to street. So it reminds me of that, it is as if that is Dabbet ul'Arz mentioned, they indeed insistedly
and openly state that they are creations of Allah. As you know, animals that become trapped in amber have remained exactly as they were right down to the very finest detail, with no decay or change. An ant dating back 125 million years is exactly the same, and bees, and other insects … so nothing has changed at all, so do not try and tell us that only human beings have changed!
Ekrem Kiziltas: They must be very annoyed at the science of palaeontology then, blaming it for confusing people and wondering where such a calamity has come from.
Adnan Oktar: I imagine they are very saddened by it.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes, very saddened. Professors, parliamentarians, the great and good, say that the theory of evolution is scientific but that creation theory is not, and cannot be proved. Yet the fossils that have been unearthed clearly prove that the universe came into existence through being commanded to “Be!” and that all living things also came into being when told to “Be!” Have any fossils that might confirm evolutionists’ theories or claims ever been unearthed they would make a big fuss about it if it ever had i guess?
Adnan Oktar: Not a single one. We told them that if they have any to bring them to Taksim Square in Istanbul and we would put them on display. Let us display any such fossil to see what kind of creature it was, or bring to the Eiffel Tower in France and let us have a look at it there. Not a peep! We ask them to come up with a single one, just one, but they don’t have any. They don't bring out any fossils of their own, while on the other hand,
reject the millions of existing fossils, this is a really awkward. Ekrem Kiziltas: And then call it scientific.
Adnan Oktar: This is incomprehendible, irrational.
Ekrem Kiziltas: It is most interesting. Fossils reveal one thing. The ant is revealed to have appeared 40 million years ago, or 110 million. Daily Radikal devotes considerable attention to this subject. Particularly one of their writers, the editor-in-chief let me name him, İsmet Berkan. There was an article by another of the same paper’s correspondents, Nuray Mert, on the decision taken by the Council of Europe Parliamentarians’ Assembly. Scientific-something, Let me have a look… “The Stupidity of Science…” Nuray Mert stated that the decision was the stupidity of science. Ismet Berkan wrote an article called “whose stupidity” over two days in which he claimed that all the fossils discovered to date supported evolution…
Adnan Oktar: If only Mr. Berkan would show them to us, tell us about them, shed light on our darkness. If he could appear on a television channel and put that fossil on the table,or we, our friends can bring it, and show us where it is thus enlighten the public. You can’t do such things on fictional basis. Look, we openly display fossils here and clearly show and state that there is no change in them, and nobody can raise any objection to that. But if Mr Berkan could come and say; look there is a change in here, that will be the end of the matter. But he cannot, because such a thing is out of the question.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes. In fact, Mr. Berkan is probably attempting to emphasise something else here. Let's say, to people who do not have any
information about the palaeontology or who have never come across to any of your books, your other works and exhibitions, it is as if he states all of those are in favour of their side it is not like, as you have stated, he
had a proof or anything, because he claims that all fossils are supporting the evolution theory, whatever that could mean. Adnan Oktar: As far as I can see, Mr. Berkan is not all that well informed on the subject, in fact he possesses almost no knowledge of it at all, but he may have fallen into error in terms of general logic. What we are talking about is protein coming into being in a swamp somewhere, and a cell forming from that protein. Because their claims are like putting a piece of meat in a jar, makes it get rotten. He may have developed such a shallow logic.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes.
Adnan Oktar: Whereas a person should first look and see- Is it possible for a protein to come into existence by chance? The probability of that is just 1 in 10950 or 1 followed by 950 zeros. And that is for just one protein needed to constitute life. A number of proteins have to combine together for life to emerge, giving birth to chromosomes and the like. Yet they describe all this as mere coincidence.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes. In fact this attempt appears to be a battle for space to breathe on the part of adherents and proponents of the theory of evolution in the face of the Theory of Creation, the Fact of Creation and it's proofs. As far as it is seen. After all, we are discussing a decision taken at a meeting of a mere 73 out of 630 members of the Council of Europe Parliamentarians’ Assembly, with only 48 members voting in favour, while 25 voted against and 3 more abstained. It’s like rescuing what one can from a fire. Had there been a rule like that put forward by the Turkish Constitutional Court for the election of the President saying a minimum of 367 votes is required, or something similar, then they could never have had that decision passed. What we can see from this is the constituency that supports Darwin and the theory of evolution is actually a very small one. Analyses on the subject of Turkey emphasise that 75% of the public are opposed to the theory of evolution. That seems pretty much the global position, but they seem to be trying to use the positions they have in their hands to have decisions taken that will affect all mankind, because they are desperate to have the theory of evolution taught as a scientific thesis in schools, but not the fact of creation. So are we looking at a take-over bid aimed at the younger generation of primarily Turkey, but also of all the world, on the part of what is a very small grouping?
Adnan Oktar: Sadly, that is how it appears. However, there is one point that must not be lost sight of here. Europe is Darwinist, or mainly Darwinist. In contrast to Turkey where, thanks be to God, Darwinism has effectively been eradicated, something in which we have managed to play a role. It used to be 20% of the public opposed Darwinism, but the figure now stands at 90%. But the same effective work is not being carried out in Europe. Such activities have only just started in Europe.
Ekrem Kiziltas: In other words, in France, we said Bismillah.
Adnan Oktar: That Bismillah, has only just started. If wide-ranging and serious work can be carried out there, too, then I estimate that the situation prevailing in Turkey will develop there as well.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes.
Adnan Oktar: Because there is a mass deception going on here. Scientists do not make mistakes, there is no need for you to do any research, they think for you, and in any case they tell the truth. If it is coincidental, then it is coincidental. Don’t meddle with this, as this is scientific. Science – geology, palaeontology, biology – everything is science. But Darwinism is a deception, a mass deception and a strategic ruse. And the greatest strategic ruse in the history of the world. Because it is an organised ruse and an organised lie. Palaeontology, for example, is science, you excavate for the fossils and look at them. Geology is the same, and biology, these are genuine sciences, branches of science prove Allah’s artistry, reveal the beauties bestowed on us by Allah, and demonstrate the fact of Creation; and science is a vehicle that in any case emphasises creation. But the deception is this; they are trying to install Darwinism among these sciences, like a thief trying to mingle among virtuous people. As if they were trying to insert a robber or bandit among reasonable people. Darwinism is a residivist, lying, destructive system, can never be included among genuine branches of science and is certainly not science. There is no need to force it as if it is.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Right, shall we now turn to the practicalities of the subject? We can say that the theory of evolution is taught in science courses, in all related clases in Turkey, and that the fact of creation may also be discussed in some way, but Darwin’s theory is taught as if it were reality and might have some, albeit tenuous, connection with reality. How are they able to organise such a state of affairs?
Adnan Oktar: It is taught in Turkey, but young people do not believe in it.
Ekrem Kiziltas: they do not take it seriously?
Adnan Oktar: Yes, of course. At least 90% do not. This is a waste of effort in Turkey, their efforts cannot come to anything in Turkey. And it didn’t.They can see that. 90%. But let it be taught, as much as they like. In other words, after it has been explained that this is a lying system, a strategic ruse, there is no reason why it should not be taught. The reason for the fear in Europe is the same - they are worried that Europe will end up like Turkey. They feared that the youth will be awakened there as well. That is their biggest fear.They say we are sending out books to young people, although we never did that. We’ve never sent any books to a single young person, it was always to professors, scientists and politicians.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes, you sent copies to people involved in the issue.
Adnan Oktar: Of course. But they have the fear about what if we had sent.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Actually, I don’t think it would be a bad thing to send copies to young people.
Adnan Oktar: But a young person in his room can immediately log on to the Harun Yahya web site at 11 at night. And when he does so he will see all the fossils and all the relevant details. That is where their naivete lies. They imagine that we are sending copies of a book weighing 6.5 or 7 kilograms to children. There is no need for that. Young people in any case log on to my web site and read it for themselves. That is what they are now looking at, the information flowing by way of the Internet. I guess they will soon be trying to ban that, too.
Ekrem Kiziltas: But that is where we will draw our line in the sand.
Adnan Oktar: But it is already far too late for that as well. Look, in the first 10 months of this year 30 million books have been downloaded.
Ekrem Kiziltas: 30 million!
Adnan Oktar: 30 million copies.
Ekrem Kiziltas: To clarify for our audience’s benefit, I understand that harunyahya.org carries publications in several languages, that means the downloaded books are not just in Turkish.
Adnan Oktar: That is right. We have texts in just about any language you can think of – English, French, German, Serbo-Croat, even languages you have probably never heard of, like Kishwahili.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Excellent. No wonder those circles are uneasy while all this activity is taking place. Have they ever suggested that “you are wrong to insist on the fact of creation in this regard, it is us who are scientific, we espouse evolution as the scientific reality, we espouse Darwinism, come and let us debate the issue”?
Adnan Oktar: This would be most splendid. Let me now issue an invitation to Europe through your channel and call on all the professors and scientists who support the theory of evolution to our headquarters in Turkey, where they will be made most welcome, we have hotels and can accommodate them. We have large halls here, we can gather in sports halls. Let us exhibit our fossils, and they can bring any of the fossils they may claim to have with them – though they will be unable to lay their hands on any. They can even bring imaginary fossils, fossils that exist solely in their imaginations. They can bring drawing of them, albeit of imaginary fossils.
Ekrem Kiziltas: With your permission I would like to interject here. There was reference at various times to fossils they claimed to fall between human beings and apes, so-and-so Man or this-and-that Man. Then it all went quiet. What lays behind that?
Adnan Oktar: They were unable to keep it up. If you notice, they constantly resorted to trickery in the papers, saying that this missing fragment or that part had been discovered. But when they ended up being humiliated every single time they eventually fell silent, and we now hear not a word.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Did they invent fossils?
Adnan Oktar: Neanderthals were human beings. But human beings with larger skulls that modern-day man. They appear to have been even more intelligent than us. Cro-magnons were human, but the rest were apes, and evolutionists admitted this on their own in stages. They wouldn’t believe it if it came from us. They have said as much themselves, however. In fact they had no alternative. There are lots of fabricated fossil skulls,
which they listed although they were lies. Even this alone, actually shows what a helpless and despairing position they are in, otherwise why do they need counterfeit fossils? Do we produce counterfeit fossils? Have we ever pointed to fake intermediate fossils? We simply dig in the ground and there they are. But they have to resort to strategic ruses. For example from Piltdown Man on, were fakes, and all have been withdrawn from the market. Nowadays there is not a peep out of them. We ask whether proteins can form by chance, and there is again not a peep out of them. They are also unable to account for the existence of the soul. When we ask who it is that sees, hears or touches, they have no reply to give. Coincidence is piled upon coincidence. They believe in a religion that has survived from Sumerian times, a very, very ancient faith.
Ekrem Kiziltas: And they call themselves progressive!
Adnan Oktar: Theirs is a very ancient faith, and one in which creation is explained in terms of chance. It is one of the world’s oddest and most primitive false religions. These are the adherents of this religion in our times. But we can see that they can no long deceive anyone and are in a state of panic. Even so, we must not underestimate it. A very powerful attack can obliterate the whole strategy. In other words, believers, Muslims, need to mobilise and ask what that deception is all about, why they are so keen to mislead the people. They need to reveal these books. They are able to download these books as they wish, free of charge. Either by downloading the books from the website, or
Ekrem Kiziltas: As a continuance of what you said earlier, you openly state that if they are still persisting in their claims they should come forward and discuss and debate them with you on a live broadcast in front of the public.
Adnan Oktar: Absolutely. That would be fantastic.
Ekrem Kiziltas: You have been engaged in such activities in Turkey for years. And, Allah be praised, your contribution has increased significantly in recent years. Do you ever hear people curious regarding the subject say things like “You tell us things, but we regard evolution as being scientific, so let us sit down and discuss the reality of the subject.”?
Adnan Oktar: They cannot speak, and have nothing they can say. All there ever was, was a deception. They turned science into a totem. They say it is scientific and that scientists cannot make mistakes, that there are matters we cannot understand and odd facts that we cannot engage with, but that they are nevertheless true and that we should believe in the truth. But ultimately they are speaking of coincidence, so that is the end of the matter, because what power has chance to do anything? Take a bucket of sand throw it in the air, and you will get no written message or poem out of it. The same applies to the formation of a protein. But even the formation of one single protein is not enough, because thousands of proteins have to combine together, and the organelles needed to give life to the cell, the mitochondria, bodies of Golgi etc all need to emerge at the same time. Looked at in terms of genetic structure in particular, the latest microbiological research has shown a breathtaking technical prowess, a breathtaking sublimity in the structure of the cell. These things cannot be accounted for in terms of chance. In other words, wherever we look we see the beauty of a perfect engineering aesthetic.
Ekrem Kiziltas: The Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly produced a list of criticisms of 18 or 19 articles. The essence of the matter was that the teaching of the fact of creation could eventually represent a threat to human rights, the idea that teaching people that the universe came into existence through being created by Almighty God might pose a danger to human rights. What do they mean by that?
Adnan Oktar: The real danger to human rights lies in the banning of ideas. Banning investigation into the truth. The establishment of an oppressive, totalitarian regime. Taking decisions in a fascist manner. Banning scientific enquiry? They talk about banning my book. But what are its contents exactly? Fossils, hundreds of fossils, and accounts and descriptions taken entirely from scientists. How can that possibly be banned? If the book is banned, is that not just what totalitarian regimes do? Is it not what Hitler did? What is the reason for such terrible fear? How far will that fear lead them? To what extent can the truth be hidden out of fear?
Ekrem Kiziltas: Then there is the matter of our future in that decision. It says that the theory of evolution must be taught in schools for the sake of European values, humanity, human rights and democracy, and that the teaching of creation would put an end to all that kind of thing and spell ruin and devastation. They say that it is essential to teach the theory of evolution, and that the theory is a scientific reality. You have said that this approach to the theory of evolution is quite widespread in Europe, and they succeed even in Turkey, so what is these people’s objective? Why are they so keen to instill the idea into young people’s minds, what is their ultimate aim?
Adnan Oktar: It is generally socialists and communists in Europe who advocate this. The communist has his ideal world, and they have not abandoned it even after the collapse of the Soviet Union. There is a communist uprising going on in eastern Turkey even as we speak. I mean it. A communist uprising. Yet many people say there is nothing of the kind. There is no communist uprising they say, communism is dead and those people engaged in the revolt have nothing to do with communism. However, we have to call a spade a spade, and there is definitely a communist uprising based on a Darwinist, materialist system going on, and communist propaganda is being produced. In Europe, the ultimate aim is European communism. They want to establish a European communism. Religion, faith, moral virtue, the family and ethics are unacceptable concepts in European communism. The objective of
communism is to demolish the concepts of family, faith and morality. Marx says as much in his works, and Lenin, and other Marxist leaders. They failed with communism in Russia and are now trying to resolve matters by way of Europe. It is these socialists in Europe who are supporting the communist movement in the East. A large part of Europe, nearly all of it, supports the PKK movement, supports this rebellion. Because both espouse the same Darwinist, materialist and atheist line. They provide that support because they share the same idea. They also want the other part of Turkey to be governed by a socialist Marxist administration when it is divided into two. God forbid! That is their ideas, but we can never permit such a thing. They want to divide Turkey into an east and a West, a communist Eastern Turkey and a communist Western Turkey. And they need Darwinism for that. That is why they are so determined to maintain that lie. In other words, when that lie is eradicated, communism and socialism will also collapse. Darwinism, the religion and vital pivot of the communist and socialist parties in Europe, is now sliding away from under their feet. The panic this is causing is far, far greater than what we actually see. They don’t want to be seen overly agitated. They really never expected such a thing, that they would suffer such a grievous wound, that they would receive such a heavy blow. They are currently trying to repair the damage. But what they really want is to have my book banned in Europe and in globally. But that looks impossible at the moment. They are now looking for a solution, asking what they can do. They want to ban it on the Internet and in Europe. Yet this is a reality that is going to grow by the day; in other words, they are too late.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes- yes. Looking at matters in the light of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly decision and your own words, is it really those people who believe in this ideology who are doing this? Or are they after some other end by spreading that ideology and encouraging people to sign up to it? Could there be such a manipulation going on?
Adnan Oktar: Naturally. The woman who is so opposed to this, that lady for example who held the book up in the European Parliament is not someone with any knowledge of Darwinism or who has ever researched it. These people are generally acting under orders, controlled from above, the bottom layer of the pyramid. If we were to ask them, they would know absolutely nothing about fossil science and would never have looked into it. The origin of this is Freemasonry. Freemasonry wants to turn the world into a single atheistic community. But this is a Satanic system. The idea in Freemasonry is not for the human beings to attain peace and well-being. The aim is a system of constant thesis-
antithesis, synthesis, in an intense struggle, causing a life of conflict and bloodshed. And Satan lies at the root of it. At the very highest levels, Masonry is part of a system that receives its instructions directly from Satan. It has been the same since the most ancient times. It is not the first time that Freemasonry has done this. That is also indicated in the Qur’an. Allah states in one verse that He will create a shell around them, that they receive orders directly and act according to Satan’s wishes. Satan is not an entity that turns up just anywhere, however. It is expert Kabbalists, those who have studied the Kabbala but who are atheists at heart, who are able to have direct relations with Satan who do this. They have set Freemasonry on a similar foundation. They have set Freemasonry on a similar foundation. Since this system is a Satanic one, and since in general people are inclined towards arthly desires, since people are generally in search of living freely, wishing to live according to their earthly desires, these systems can easily find root. For example if you tell someone to drink alcohol, not to perform the namaz and not to fast, he might be delighted about it. If he is weak, If he is weak that is. But it runs against their earthly desires if you instead tell them not to drink alcohol, and to perform the namaz. That is why it is an easy matter for a system that pleases earthly desires to be set up by someone on Satan’s path. In other words, the great majority of people can thus be won over. That is why they are successful. That is why in the European Parliament they favour a structure whereby people live for this world, benefit from the blessings of this world and remain far removed from God. Because someone who thinks about God does not easily commit sins or blaspheme, but lives a disciplined life according to moral laws. The others, however, want to live without laws, as free as they can be, if necessary drinking and falling over in a drunken stupor, engaging in perversions, shouting and even shedding blood, and that makes Satan’s work very easy. Under hypnotic trance, for instance, they have a Mason make contact with Satan. Satan then speaks through that person’s mouth and the Masons start writing it down. This is what you must do, you will start a war here, shed blood there, initiate such and such a strategic ruse, that is the system that operates above the 33rd degree in Masonic discourses. This is what they call their secret. Therefore, since they are in direct contact with Satan they regard this as something quite marvellous.
Ekrem Kiziltas: They way they say that the teaching of the theory of creation poses a danger and that it is the theory of evolution that should be taught instead, puts one in mind of something that you have also emphasised in your articles and books – Social Darwinism. In the light of what you have said, is a specific group, a specific organisation, trying to turn everyone else into robots, into sheep who will do what they are told once their desires have been satisfied?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. It is very easy to create anarchy in such a community. Look how easily they have taken over the communist terror in the East. Because there is no namaz, no fear of Allah, no love of Allah, no belief in the hereafter; when you tell them to go off and shoot soldiers they go off and shoot soldiers, and when you tell them to bomb places they blow up places filled with innocent, radiant human beings, even blowing such places into smithereens. The real objective here is to do away with the fear of Allah. Because fear of Allah makes those people uneasy and stops them living as their hearts so desire. Because Europeans intend to live as animals in the name of freedom. There is no need for me to say that, as everyone can see it. This fear that this system will collapse when Darwinism collapses. They say there is a movement aimed at tearing down what they have laboriously built up over a century, this system they have worked hard on establishing. This means they have built up an atheistic system over a century, and now this is about to be torn down, and that is a very serious cry. They really are crying out at this moment. The very earth is trembling. They are looking for a way to halt it. They want everyone to work together, but that this thing has to be stopped.
Ekrem Kiziltas: They say let’s work hand in hand.
Adnan Oktar: But the truth cannot be halted. For example, if you lock 100 people in a room, draw all the curtains and tell them the Sun has not risen, the whole deception will come to an end if even the slightest chink appears and one person sees that in fact the Sun has, after all, risen. You will be unable to manipulate those 100 people. This is the same. They have been dealt a small, but lethal blow. There is nothing they can now do.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes. There is another aspect to the matter to when Darwin first launched his theory: people claiming to be scientific still talk about Darwin and a number of theories proposed by him, but science has moved on enormously since then. It has made major strides in the area of the cell etc. How is it possible for these people to back the ideas of someone who had no idea of modern technology, who was millions of years behind the advances that have been made today?
Adnan Oktar: If Darwin had lived in the present century there is no way he would have been a Darwinist. And he would definitely abandon his beliefs. The man said that if no transitional fossils were found his theory would collapse, in summary. Some 100 million living fossils have been discovered. What would Darwin say if these were shown to him?
Ekrem Kiziltas: He would probably reject them, like they do today.
Adnan Oktar: Of course. Inshallah.
Ekrem Kiziltas: He would probably say he hoped the long-awaited intermediate form fossils would one day be found. But to return to the question of Social Darwinism, the theory of evolution refers to the natural selection of species. The survival of the fittest and all that kind of thing. Is this being applied in Social Darwinism, in the world we live in today?
Adnan Oktar: They are not actually doing what Darwin said, just basing it on his words, but this is a demand of Satan’s. Satan is using it as a tool. They also have basic animal instincts for the shedding of blood. But there is the belief that progress cannot be made without bloodshed and anarchy. They believe that human beings can only progress by shedding blood through war and conflict. But their aim is not human progress at all, merely to obey Satan’s commands; chaos, anarchy, bombs exploding, constant unrest, non-stop sounds of sirens, the police rushing about, and total confusion. Satan does not want a world at peace. That is the real issue. The current movement is being shown the way by Satan.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Right. That means that one section of society, those at least at the very top, are in some way in league with Satan in order for there to be evil in the world and for evil to prevail. And they are coming up with these evils. Is that why they are engaging in activities against religious individuals in a manner linked to that theory?
Adnan Oktar: Islam has become a major threat to them. In their eyes. And it really is snowballing. When they attacked Said Nursi he grew, he grew stronger, Inshallah. Millions of his followers are now spreading the light across the world.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes. I believe you have held your fossil exhibitions in very different locations in Turkey, in areas open to the public. Have you any interesting stories about that. What I mean is, has anyone with contrary ideas ever turned up and said so is this what it is all about? Have you any such personal anecdotes?
Adnan Oktar: Such things happened on many occasions at first. People asking if these fossils were real? Or debates on similar issues and similar things. But now everything is much quieter. That is to say, everyone visiting now declares that evolution never actually happened, stating that these are genuine, these are definitive scientific proofs. They all state that they have come a definite conclusion on the subject. In fact, if a poll was to be held in Turkey, the percentage of the non-believers of Darwinism will be at least 90%. At least 90%.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Right. That is what was said during those speeches made during the debate in the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, perhaps by that lady you referred to earlier. They said that they had witnessed a major offensive by the Turkish creationist Harun Yahya, who had sent large numbers of copies of his Atlas of Creation to schools in France, Belgium, Spain and Switzerland. Has the book been sent to places other than France?
Adnan Oktar: Yes, to America, to various countries. It was sent.
Ekrem Kiziltas: And then there are those that have been downloaded over the Internet…
Adnan Oktar: The downloading of books over the Internet is enough all by itself.
Ekrem Kiziltas: It is sufficient enough, we are not even including those. There will eventually be 14 volumes, which means you will probably have included all the main fossils that have ever been unearthed.
Adnan Oktar: No, no. Only a very small fraction. Fourteen volumes is very little for some 100 million…
Ekrem Kiziltas: As many as that?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. A huge number. There is no end to them.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Good God!
Adnan Oktar: In other words, there are also photographs of where excavations took place. Hundreds of square kilometres, everywhere is full of them. If they scratch the surface a bit, there they are, there they emerge. They can never conceal or cope with them. This is a great miracle. The wisdom of Allah and the way they have been preserved. Fish have been discovered, for example, complete right down to the tiniest bone. All the fishbones and backbone are the same, even the fishbone vessels are all the same.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Stating of fish, on page 60 of the book, which led to claim and counter claim in the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly, I see photographs of a giant freshwater trout in which it is claimed that evolution never happened. They are all hot and bothered over a single photograph, what is their problem with it?
Adnan Oktar: It’s true, it has never changed. It is really ridiculous.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Indeed:
Adnan Oktar: They say it has never changed, but he included it.
Ekrem Kiziltas: They have no idea what to do next.
Adnan Oktar: If it hasn’t changed, it hasn’t changed. It’s as simple as that.
Ekrem Kiziltas: And the Science Research Foundation is actively working for the removal of all reference to evolution in the Turkish education system, and it is thought that they have close links with an American Creation Research Institute, they said. Have these activities you have been engaged in for so long had any response on the part of the state, of the national education system, have they allowed any progress to be made?
Adnan Oktar: : This is something that civil society organisations will do. For example, the Science Research Foundation has by itself proved that 90% of the public in Turkey, 90% of the Turkish nation, believe Darwinism to be a deception. That means such things are possible.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Indeed
Adnan Oktar: Yes, the tiny Science Research Foundation has produced giant results all over Turkey. A giant result of 90 %.That is why we should not expect everything to come from the state, from the government.
Ekrem Kiziltas: You mean that civil society organisations must also discharge their own responsibilities.
Adnan Oktar: Of course, of course. But the path ahead of civil society organisations also needs to be opened. The obstacles in their way need to be cleared.
Ekrem Kiziltas: This book will eventually consist of 14 volumes, but are the fossil exhibitions still taking place these days?
Adnan Oktar: Yes, on a regular basis.
Ekrem Kiziltas: The fossil exhibitions are continuing, but are there any efforts being made to obstruct them in any way?
Adnan Oktar: Initially there was a huge panic, but later kebab shop owners, restaurants, shops… in other words they saw there was nothing they could do about it. They have lost the end of the string. The Marxists. They are currently in a state of total surrender on that point.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes. Now, this is I private matter I guess, though it may concern some of our audience. Have you any plans to take this book that will eventually consist of 14 volumes, extract the most significant fossil photographs from it, say 50-100, again with the explanations and promote that as a single, smaller but again very high-quality volume?
Adnan Oktar: Of course. In fact, I am currently working on a book about skulls. Just about skulls.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Right.
Adnan Oktar: This is again a very small proportion of all the skulls that have been discovered, but the main thing is again the internet. We upload the pictures of the fossils we find onto the net, and those who wish can download them. This is excellent, and what is more is free of charge and easy to do. The 30 million copies of these books that have been downloaded to date is a really terrifying number for the other side. They have no way of eradicating this from the internet. 30 million people. Who knows where all those copies are now?
Ekrem Kiziltas: That is true.
Adnan Oktar: They can try and take it from anyone’s home they find it in. But they will never succeed.
Ekrem Kiziltas: The Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly says this; we are taking this decision, but it must not be interpreted as meaning we are opposed to religion, but the theory of creation, an extension of religion as they put it, must not be taught as a social science in schools, though it can be taught in classes on religion. But those same circles are also trying to ban the teaching of religion. That means we eventually come back to what you were saying, that a specific circle is engaged in very different calculations.
Adnan Oktar: Of course. This is a cunning ruse to avoid attracting the public gaze, and no believer must be taken in by it. So what if creation is banned, the Qur’an also refers to creation. So then the Qur’an would have to be banned. These things are also in the Bible and the Torah; they are not just against the Qur’an, but against all faiths, albeit the Qur’an in particular. Voices have been raised, they have lacked the courage but their basic aim is the prohibition of the Qur’an. Because what does the banning of creationism mean? They are telling us not to speak of it. Do not say anything was created, they say. So what can one then say? First of all, that means there is no democracy, no freedom of thought. How can we be obliged to believe in the religion of chance? I do not believe in coincidence, I do not.
Ekrem Kiziltas: Yes.
Adnan Oktar: I do not believe that when a handful of sand is thrown in the air it will land in the form of a written text. I do not believe in such nonsense. How could I? It is obvious that there is Allah who creates all things. No matter how much they may tell me not to believe in God, my brain still believes, and even if they close my mouth my brain will still believe. It is impossible to halt brains.
Ekrem Kiziltas: So we can say these people are not democratic.
Adnan Oktar: They most definitely are not.
Ekrem Kiziltas: I doubt if one person in a thousand shares their belief in coincidence.
Adnan Oktar: Darwinism is widespread in Europe, and is a grave danger, because there is an operation underway aimed at turning Europeans’ minds in that direction. There is an idea that attracts them solely to this world, to entertainment, listening to music, dancing about, performing mad stunts, and that all life is to be lived in this world, and these people find that highly attractive, and it is an easy path for someone with narrow horizons. Religion is something requiring labour, but it is also the greatest luxury in the world. A devout person attains the biggest luxury on earth. Because he always thinks rationally, legitimately and in a balanced manner. Everything is controlled and he is the most rational person in the world, a truly religious individual. And for that reason, religion is the greatest luxury. These circles do not want that, they want a mass, animal-like society, and this is not the first time that this has emerged. There has always been a struggle between those who believe and those who do not. There has always been one group under the influence of Satan, a satanic group, and a group opposed to Satan and struggling against him. That is why Satan has received a body blow this time, Inshallah.
Ekrem Kiziltas: When taken shelter in Allah’s name, it blow to a tough rock this time
Adnan Oktar: Inshallah.
Ekrem Kiziltas: We have spoken about the demand based on the decision taken by the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly for the fact of creation not to be taught in schools. We knew that your Atlas of Creation was a 7-volume work, but were unaware it was to consist of 14. We have learned that your fossil exhibitions are continuing and growing. And we have learned that no matter how much some people may think that fossils represent evidence for their own theories, in fact, the hundreds of millions of fossils all refute Darwinism and the theory of evolution, and have also driven these people to distraction. I thank you again for your work, for the Atlas of Creation and similar works, and for the fossil exhibition. And I thank you for your statements. I wish you all success in your subsequent endeavours.
Adnan Oktar: I thank you, too, for your interest. InshaAllah this will be a most excellent programme, of which we will see the benefits. InshaAllah it will be useful.
